Difference between lines

Discussion of tenkara lines, tippets, etc...

Difference between lines

Postby loafskibum » Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:47 pm

Right now I am using a Seaguar Blue Label %100 fluoro. leader for line. It is .013"/.330mm. Would something like the TUSA High Vis. level line feel a lot different?

Thanks!
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Re: Difference between lines

Postby Nagasaurus » Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:15 pm

That line would translate to roughly a 4.0 line so is between the 4.5 and 3.5 lines available via TUSA so there is a difference but not a large one. There is typically small variances in stiffness between line manufactures so that would make a bit of a difference as well in how easy it is to remove coils.

Edit: Forgot to add the line conversion chart link - http://www.tenkaratimes.co.uk/tenkara-tutorial/tenkara-lines-japanese-to-western-scale
Last edited by Nagasaurus on Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Difference between lines

Postby John @ Tenkara USA » Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:04 pm

Feel should be similar, but our lines or any floro lines for tenkara will be much more visible. They should make it easier to detect strikes and know where your fly is.
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Re: Difference between lines

Postby dwalker » Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:19 pm

http://www.tenkaratimes.co.uk/tenkara-tutorial/tenkara-lines-japanese-to-western-scale

One thing that has confused me about the Tenkaratimes table is that 4 号 line is listed as .330 mm(jp) and 16 lb( jp) in the left table. Yet on the other table the list says a .330 mm ( usa) line is 12 lb( usa). Why the 4 lb difference?

Seems to me a mm in Japan is a mm in the USA and a lb in Japan is an lb in the USA. Or ought to be. And a line made of the same material, nylon or fluorocarbon, if its the same diameter ought to be about the same test rating. No matter where it is made. So why isn't .330 mm line the same lb rating in both tables or both countries ?

I have discovered in Japan the line sizes are based off of 1 号 = .165 mm for nylon line. This goes back in history to a standard for the size of nylon line of that size. In 1947 the company that has become modern day Toyo Rayon or Toray defined 1 号 = .165 mm. And some other changes in how line is measured were made in 1959. This diameter apparently goes back in time to the way silk line was measured. They took a standard length ( approx 1.515 m) of silk line made to be a given size, weighted it and calculated what the average diameter of the silk line per weight measured. What ever the details a silk line of average .165mm is an old standard and it became known as 1 号.

Apparently this size also goes back further in history to how the thickness of silk line was measured that originated in China. In turn the issue no. ( 号) vs test is set today by JIS ( Japan Industry Standard. Although it appears there is no legal requirement to adhere to the standard. At least not strictly.

Anyway. If I understand it in Japan. They take a standard length of line and measure its weight, from that they calculate its average diameter. This is different from how it is done in Europe or the USA.

If you look at the Japanese Wikipedia entry for fishing line, the table on the left on the Tenkaratimes scale is closest to being accurate to the standard table printed in the Wikipedia page. The Wikipedia entry table list 4 号 = .331 mm = > 8kg for nylon line. 8kg = 17.637 lb, converted from kg. Though this is the standard for nylon line, fluorocarbon is a bit different.

The Japanese Wikipedia entry for Fishing Line ( 釣り糸) where its easy enough to read the standards table and the table showing specific gravity of different types of line.

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%87%A3%E3%82%8A%E7%B3%B8

ナイロンライン = nylon line
フロロカーボンライン = fluorocarbon line
PEライン = Polyethylene Line
比重 = specific gravity
太さ = the thickness or diameter
ナイロンラインの強度 = the strength of nylon line.

Note that the rule of thumb holds true as seen in this table and also on the Tenkaratimes table. If you double the 号 number you double the test number. 1 号 = 2kg, 2号= 4kg and 4 号 = 8kg.

The paragraph below the title - なぜ1号=0.165㎜か? = Why does 1号=0.165㎜ ? Explains why this size is the standard the other sizes are based on.

This English language page from YGK is pretty interesting. Obviously they toot their own horn for their line since it is their web page. But is has a lot of good information about how line is measured and how it varies in production.

http://www.yoz-ami.jp/english/line_technology/index.html

Wherein it states this - " As for methods of labeling fishing line world-wide, the United States uses pound notation. Europe uses a combined notation of line diameter (mm) and linear strength (kg.) In Japan, Korea and Taiwan, the thickness index used to indicate line diameter is most common, but the use of pound notation is on the rise. As just mentioned, pound notation implies that the line will break at a lower value than the labeling, but in the case of kilogram notation, the labeling represents an average value of linear strength."

So perhaps this is an explanation for the discrepancy in the two tables on the Tenkaratimes website. Apparently you can't just convert kg to lb, as used for specifying fishing line, since lb notation implies a breaking strength = or < the lb specified. And kg specification implies an average strength.

YGK has a lot more information on their Japanese language page about how line is measured. The diagrams on this page are fairly clear about how modern day line measurements are made. Centered around 1 号 .
http://www.yoz-ami.jp/line_technology/039.html

The story about the linear length of measurement is pretty interesting too. Proving politicians or rulers are corrupt the world over and over time. The unit of length used by carpenters never changed over time. Building castles required precision. The length for measuring trade material things such as cloth was originally the same as used by carpenters but it got longer over the years. That way the rulers who demanded so many linear units of cloth of a certain length for taxes, gradually made people work harder to make "the same length of cloth". Since the linear measurement used by the taxman kept getting longer over time the weaver had to spend more time making the cloth. It's just harder to weave a yard of cloth when it becomes 10% or 20% longer as the years passed by the tax-man's ruler. :x

The poor cloth weavers were condemned to use the opposite of the fisherman's ruler. The cloth weaver was forced to use a ruler that was actually 12 inches long, but it was marked to say it was only 10 inches long. And as everyone knows, a fisherman's ruler, that is actually 12 inches long, is most often marked to say it is 18 inches long. :shock: :roll:

Anyway, a lot more than was originally asked and Nagasaurus and John answered the original question pretty well. I just set out to fix the link to the Tenkaratimes tables and got carried away. :o

fwiw,

D
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Re: Difference between lines

Postby Nagasaurus » Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:08 am

Good points dwalker. Perhaps that all can be summarized by this: two lines advertised as "3.5" may not perform the same.

A good starting point is of course the clues from the packaging. If two different manufacturers say their line is made of fluorocarbon and have the same diameter then they'll have similar density and from a tenkara perspective cast similarly (I'm taking breaking strength out of the equation since that doesn't matter for casting).

But without actually weighing the line (and who wants to do that?) we don't know for certain the density is the same. Personally I buy from suppliers that I know have casted the level lines they stock and trust their experience.
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Re: Difference between lines

Postby dwalker » Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:36 pm

Nagasaurus wrote:Good points dwalker. Perhaps that all can be summarized by this: two lines advertised as "3.5" may not perform the same.


Thanks. I'm sure many folks don't care about such things. I just found the back story of the adoption of 1 号 = .165 mm for nylon line interesting as a standard upon which other line sizes are based off of interesting.

Oh quite right. The tables of different line sizes only tell you about line thickness and predicted test breaking force. But that only provides some basic information about whether the line is approximately the size line you want.

It doesn't tell you if it will cast well, or be visible to see the hit on the fly or if the line will coil due to spool memory. I think TUSA is on the 3d or 4th change in level line. The size and test is the same as previous line thus the new line is coming out that holds the promise to improve the other desired line characteristics not covered in the line tables.


Nagasaurus wrote:...But without actually weighing the line (and who wants to do that?) .... Personally I buy from suppliers that I know have casted the level lines they stock and trust their experience.


You might be surprised :o by the number of web pages I have seen where people do indeed weight measured lengths of new line that they have purchased to use for tenkara fishing. But I think that is done by the hard core engineering types or the explorers. For sure the best way for most of us is to be guided by the line that has worked well for others. I find it helpful to study to learn the basics of good casting but in the end you only learn to cast well by spending time casting. Just no substitute for spending time on the water with the rod and line of choice. :)

D
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